Debunking the Tinfoilhatters

June 20, 2006 at 12:59 am (Blogs, The Left)

Do you deal with people who believe the events of September 11, 2001 were a hoax or a conspiracy? Are you annoyed by such conspiracy theorists?

Then you may want to check out this post on File It Under. They have a video you may want to watch that debunks the conspiracy theories.

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15 Comments

  1. blackflag said,

    “Do you deal with people who believe the events of September 11, 2001 were a hoax or a conspiracy?”

    A: No.

    “Are you annoyed by such conspiracy theorists?”

    A: Disgusted would be the proper term.

  2. Len said,

    The only “conspiracy theory” that is widely spread is the “official conspiracy theory”…the one endorsed by the most absurd conspiracy theorist of them all —George W. Bush.

    What is Al Qaeda if not a “conspiracy”?

    What is the “Axis of Evil” if not a conspiracy?

    What was Hani Hanjour and Atta doing if not conspiring. And isn’t it interesting that the BBC and the Guardian would later turn up SEVERAL alleged hijackers ( conspirators) who has somehow managed to survive that day. Some of them were giving interviews. Not bad for a dead guy.

    Moreover, last time I did just a cursory internet search, I found well over 200 SCOTUS decisions — ALL having to do with “conspiracies”. Some bright GOPPER should have informed SCOTUS that conspiracies don’t exist; It might have saved those aging justices a lot of work.

    Secondly, go to FINDLAW! You will find that some 80 to 90 percent of thousands of U.S. Codes have to do with conspiracies of some sort or another. Amazing that Congress would spend so much time passing criminal laws having to do with something THAT DOES NOT EXIST!

    Honestly —right wing idiots spent the better part of the 1950’s warning us of a great WORLD WIDE COMMUNIST conspiracy. Now the same ilk is trying to convince us that conspiracies don’t exist. Indeed, the right wing is this country has been drinking lead laced water….and that is know to kill brain cells. Ooooops another conspiracy but one that is left over from the red scares of the 1950’s.

    In the 50’s right wing nuts and other idiots found a commie under every sofa….now they find a —boogiedy boogiedy —a CONSPIRACY. There are so many conspiracies afoot that the implication among right wing nuts is that there is a CONSPIRACY to spread CONSPIRACY.

    But, in the meantime, we are expected to believe everything said about Al Qaeda, though all we have are mere assertions.

    Asking the question: why did Bush block several investigation of 911 is NOT positing a theory of any sort. And if you say it is, you are a liar.

    Asking the question: why were the jets not scrambled until after the events were all over and done with is NOT positing any theory whatsoever.

    On the other hand, Bush has expected the American people to believe an assortment of absurdities, bullshit, and outright lies. Most of them depend upon Americans swallowing a load of codswallop along with “official conspiracy theories” for which there is not a shred of hard evidence to be found anywhere.

    The truly skeptical position is one of questioning anything put forward by the Bush administration to whom falls the burden of proof. If Bush has a theory about how Atta et all pulled off 911, then let him back it up with hard evidence, an investigation, proof!

    Bush asked us to believe that Saddam had WMD, possibly a nuke and Condo raised the specter of a mushroom cloud. Saddam, were were led to believe, was CONSPIRING with Bin Laden to wage war on Americans. But I suppose that doesn’t count as a conspiracy theory because it was put forward by a GOPPER.

    Finally, go to the Arlington National Cemetary Website. Check the flight manifest for Flight 77. Try matching up the names of the people SAID to have been buried in a common urn with the names of the people that were on the flight manifest. When you done that, tell my WHY NONE of the passengers are accounted for. NONE.

    FACT: Nothing said by Bush about anything at anytime can be believed.

  3. Muslihoon said,

    The only “conspiracy theory” that is widely spread is the “official conspiracy theory”…the one endorsed by the most absurd conspiracy theorist of them all —George W. Bush.

    If you mean a theory that explains the conspiracies of others, then I would agree. And President Bush is correct.

    What is Al Qaeda if not a “conspiracy”?

    If you mean al-Qaa’idah is a conspiracy conspiring against The United States, then we are in agreement. If you mean the concept and organization of al-Qaa’idah is a crackpot theory cooked up by Republicans, then I must strenuously disagree. Al-Qaa’idah declared war on The United States in 1998. This was during the presidency of Bill Clinton, a Democrat. Recall that Clinton launched a number of attacks against al-Qaa’idah, striking a number of targets. If one posits that Republicans invented al-Qaa’idah, then one would have to concede that Clinton is either a Republican in disguise or has been duped by Republicans.

    I was in The United Arab Emirates when al-Qaa’idah declared war on The United States. Even there I was able to hear about Usama bin Ladin’s campaign and to watch interviews with him in English. So unless you would state that the government of The United Arab Emirates is involved in this grand Republican scheme, some things are not fitting your theory.

    What is the “Axis of Evil” if not a conspiracy?

    You are correct to cast doubt on Bush’s comment. In retrospect, I am quite disturbed.

    Why did he not include Syria and Russia along with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea? They too are, in their own ways, rogue regimes and equally liable to be excoriated. He should speak out more against Syria and Russia too. Thank you for pointing out Bush’s failing in this regard.

    What was Hani Hanjour and Atta doing if not conspiring. And isn’t it interesting that the BBC and the Guardian would later turn up SEVERAL alleged hijackers ( conspirators) who has somehow managed to survive that day. Some of them were giving interviews. Not bad for a dead guy.

    There’s a difference between hijackers and conspirators. Not all conspirators were hijackers. Some stayed behind to carry out other attacks.

    Moreover, last time I did just a cursory internet search, I found well over 200 SCOTUS decisions — ALL having to do with “conspiracies”. Some bright GOPPER should have informed SCOTUS that conspiracies don’t exist; It might have saved those aging justices a lot of work.

    Secondly, go to FINDLAW! You will find that some 80 to 90 percent of thousands of U.S. Codes have to do with conspiracies of some sort or another. Amazing that Congress would spend so much time passing criminal laws having to do with something THAT DOES NOT EXIST!

    Law is not my field, so I’m not going there.

    Honestly —right wing idiots spent the better part of the 1950’s warning us of a great WORLD WIDE COMMUNIST conspiracy. Now the same ilk is trying to convince us that conspiracies don’t exist. Indeed, the right wing is this country has been drinking lead laced water….and that is know to kill brain cells. Ooooops another conspiracy but one that is left over from the red scares of the 1950’s.

    I suggest you read The Sword and the Shield. This examines records brought over by a high-level KGB defector to The United Kingdom. It seems that the “right-wing idiots” were actually correct. Under the KGB there was a concerted effort (a conspiracy, if you will) to undermine The United States and capitalism from within The United States. By a weird turn of events, just when the KGB, and The Soviet Union for that matter, needed infiltrators in The United States, none could be found because of McCarthy’s “Red Scare.” Did he go too far? Perhaps. But his actions did cripple the efforts in The United States of the KGB and other Communist entities.

    The failure of the left (I will not be so crude as to call them “right-wing idiots”) to recognize these campaigns is quite disturbing.

    In the 50’s right wing nuts and other idiots found a commie under every sofa….now they find a —boogiedy boogiedy —a CONSPIRACY. There are so many conspiracies afoot that the implication among right wing nuts is that there is a CONSPIRACY to spread CONSPIRACY.

    But, in the meantime, we are expected to believe everything said about Al Qaeda, though all we have are mere assertions.

    These are more than assertions, I can guarantee you that. Perhaps in The United States one may not be exposed to facts that validate the existence of al-Qaa’idah and its allies, but when one lives abroad one can easily tell they exist, as I have been able to tell. They’re all interconnected.

    Asking the question: why did Bush block several investigation of 911 is NOT positing a theory of any sort. And if you say it is, you are a liar.

    Why waste resources on something that should be obvious to everyone? We know who did it. We know why. We know how.

    Asking the question: why were the jets not scrambled until after the events were all over and done with is NOT positing any theory whatsoever.

    I hope you realize that expecting everything to turn out perfectly is somewhat unrealistic during a time of crisis. Everything happened so fast, and events were so confusing that I am amazed The Government was a coordinated as it was. Chaos reigned because no one anticipated such an event.

    On the other hand, Bush has expected the American people to believe an assortment of absurdities, bullshit, and outright lies. Most of them depend upon Americans swallowing a load of codswallop along with “official conspiracy theories” for which there is not a shred of hard evidence to be found anywhere.

    Funny that Bush would talk about Muslim fanatics here and abroad, and he be dismissed. I suppose I worry for my life, my father’s life, and my family’s life in vain. I suppose I’m just imagining that we are threatened by Islamist fanatics who seek to silence any and every critic of Islam, which I and my father do not hesitate in doing. I go even further: I am apostate. So I doubly deserve execution under Islamic law. My grandfather was nearly killed several times in Pakistan because of his outspokenness.

    Furthermore, I know what many Muslims here are saying. I know what they want. I know what they are capable of doing. There are hundreds if not thousands of people in The United States who have an intimate knowledge of the threat we are facing from within, let alone the fanatic militants abroad. To deny the existence of this threat is to be blind to hard fact and reality. I’m sorry, but that’s the way it is. He who fails to recognizes this is deliberately refusing to face up to reality.

    The truly skeptical position is one of questioning anything put forward by the Bush administration to whom falls the burden of proof. If Bush has a theory about how Atta et all pulled off 911, then let him back it up with hard evidence, an investigation, proof!

    Has been done. Whether people are willing to believe it another matter all together.

    Bush asked us to believe that Saddam had WMD, possibly a nuke and Condo raised the specter of a mushroom cloud. Saddam, were were led to believe, was CONSPIRING with Bin Laden to wage war on Americans. But I suppose that doesn’t count as a conspiracy theory because it was put forward by a GOPPER.

    We are finding out every day that their claims are not without merit. Why the Pentagon left numerous documents either untranslated or unreleased is beyond me, but we are getting a clearer picture of Saddam’s goals and methods.

    Furthermore, to suppose that weapons of mass destruction was the only reason we went in there is to be a bit myopic. There are a number of reasons The United States went into Iraq, not just one or two.

    Additionally, I strenuously object to anyone, regardless of politics or whatever other irrelevant characteristic, who disagrees with the liberation of Iraq. What we have done there is remarkable and is truly a shame in the face of Islam. While the Muslim world complains about the injustices of the Palestinians, they refuse to even lift a finger against a Muslim ruler who gasses his people, uses unconventional weapons on his people, massacres his people, restricts the religious rights of his people, causes his people anguish and suffering, and oppresses the majorities with the iron boot of tyranny – and it takes an army of infidels to liberate them? Hogwash!

    I don’t care why went into Iraq. We did, we got rid of Saddam, and what we did was good and right. Period.

    Finally, go to the Arlington National Cemetary Website. Check the flight manifest for Flight 77. Try matching up the names of the people SAID to have been buried in a common urn with the names of the people that were on the flight manifest. When you done that, tell my WHY NONE of the passengers are accounted for. NONE.

    I’m sorry, can you repeat this? Are you saying that none of the names on the Memorial matches the names on the manifest?

    From what I have read, in the common urn only a few people were interred: those remains that oculd not be identified or that survivors wanted to be included in the urn. Otherwise there is a memorial listing all the names of the victims, regardless of where they may be buried.

    Furthermore, from this website, “Of the 184 people who died in the Sept. 11 attack on the Pentagon, 64 are buried in Arlington. Fifty of those victims are located in Section 64, which overlooks the Pentagon’s west side where the hijacked plane crashed.”

    FACT: Nothing said by Bush about anything at anytime can be believed.

    I find it very strange that some of the very things Clinton said – Saddam and his WMDs, al-Qaa’idah and its war against The United States – are now said to be lies because Bush is saying them. Maybe if Bush were a Democrat the points would be accepted? Does the messenger really matter so much? I find this to be hypocritical if not irresponsible.

    I don’t care to play such childish and stupid games. I know reality and I will portray it. I know things many people may not. I have seen and heard many things many people here have not. It is up to you to accept the facts or to invent fanciful ways to dismiss them. There are plenty of your type of people around me, even among my relatives. I’m not going to waste much energy trying to rectify them. Just remember: your blindness is your choice.

  4. Hoodlumman said,

    I find it humorous that when you post about how stupid conspiracy theories sound, the conspiracy theorists jump right out and prove how assinine they actually are.

    It’s all grossly counterintuitive. Instead of the most likely and proven event to have happened, it’s always some convoluted, super-secret, ultra-fancy, Zionist/neocon/freemason group/government coverup.

    No, it’s not.

  5. Muslihoon said,

    Hoodlumman: Thanks for stopping by!

    Occam’s Razor: the simplest explanation is usually the true explanation. It amazes me how consistently, as you mentioned, conspiracy theorists prove this rule.

  6. Christine said,

    As usual Muslihoon, you have rather eloquently explained the truth.

  7. Christine said,

    Oops, wrong post. 😀 And can’t delete anymore.

  8. Len Hart said,

    Thanks for posting my article. I think it interesting that you obviously think you refuted it.

    But you didn’t!

    You absolutely confirmed it unless you are prepared to tell me that the “world wide communist conspiracy” was not a conspiracy. It would appear that you believe that it was.

    Secondly, I think you missed the point of the article which was to hold the “un” credible right wing to its own standards. Those efforts will always fail, however, because the right wing mentality is endemically hypocritical. That, by the way, is a meaningful proposition that could be verified with psychological tests of a population sample. I suggest someone put up the money to do it and solve the matter once and for all. Carl Jung came close. He said that some 30 percent of every population is, what we would call, NUTS! That 30 percent is, in my opinion, the right wing of the political spectrum.

    Too bad that you didn’t go to Findlaw. Ubless you do that, you cannot claim to have refuted a single point.

    You said it was not your field. Too bad! “Conspiracy” is a legal concept. You would have found the US Codes, the SCOTUS decisions, and scholarly, articles by legal experts defining conspiracies and their legal implications. Indeed, if as few as two people decide to collaborate to perpetrate a crime, you’ve got a conspiracy. Legal or no –very little of great significance is accomplished by one person working alone. If what is done is legal, it’s a company, possibly a corporation. But, if what is done is not liked by demagogues, then it is usually branded a conspiracy for political purposes.

    The point is: the right wing demonizes “conspiracy theories” while indulging the most outlandish conspiracy theories themselves.

    If you don’t agree with what I have said about Bush’s stupid and outlandish theories, all you need do is prove them to be true. Bushco supported an outlandish THEORY. The dictum in logic, law, and debate is simply this: those who assert must prove. Not only did the Bush administration shut down, quash and, in every other way, obstruct any attempts to investigate 911, there is not a shred of evidence in support of any part of it. I alleged therefore that it is all pure supposition, lies, and utter bullshit!

  9. Len Hart said,

    As much as 90 percent of the official conspiracy theory is absolutely dependent upon cell phone calls being made from the airliners in question at high altitudes, possibly 30,000 feet. It just didn’t happen. Without those phone calls, the official conspiracy theory falls apart.

    It is often objected: “But what about all the people?”

    Indeed, what about them? I checked the official web site of Arlington National Cemetary, hardly “Prison Planet”. What I learned startled me. Check for yourself.

    NONE of the passengers of Flight 77 have been either identified or accounted for. Of the cremated and buried remains, only two were “said” by officials as having been passengers. Two children. But they were not identified.

    About ten other “remains” were said to have been Pentagon employees and hijackers. But there is no forensic evidence in support of that conclusion.

    But, in the case of the hijackers, they conveniently called hijackers because they were not thought by default, i.e. no one knows who they were.

    Since then, credible news sources like the BBC and the Guardian have reported that at least one of those “hijackers” —said to have been buried at Arlington National Cemetary in a common “urn” with Pentagon employees —is still alive. If ANY hijacker is still alive, the official conspiracy theory falls apart.

    Secondly, I have read too many accounts by structural engineers and aircraft experts. I will venture to say that a 757 DID NOT crash into the pentagon. In any case, a 757 could not have left a neat little round punch out hole in “ground zero” as it exited the outer rings. Didn’t happen. And, even if it had, where are the remains of whatever made the punch out hole?

    Bush’s official conspiracy theory is pure bullshit, utter bunkum and there is absolutely no evidence of any sort, anywhere in support of it.

    In the meantime, check out the Stanford University study about how “right wingers” experience more “night terrors” than normal people. Could it be the result of all the right wing bullshit that they have swallowed before going to bed?

  10. Len Hart said,

    Check out the Flight Manifest from Flight 77. There was not a single Muslim on that plane. Not one. How –then –did Hani Hanjour get on board? No one reported a fracas before take off!!! Nor could Hanjour have pretended to be one of the other passengers. Those names are all accounted for. Occam’s razor, again. There were NO arabs on Flight 77 and, indeed, there is no evidence that any were buried at Arlington.

    Too bad that the powers that be decided to quash the investigation and forever hide the truth. That’s no theory. Even the co-chairs if the 911 commission complain about the obstruction of their work and now disown it. If they don’t believe their own report, why should anyone else?

  11. Len Hart said,

    I wrote: “The only “conspiracy theory” that is widely spread is the “official conspiracy theory”…the one endorsed by the most absurd conspiracy theorist of them all —George W. Bush”

    And then you wrote: “If you mean a theory that explains the conspiracies of others, then I would agree. And President Bush is correct.”

    NO …George Bush did NOT say that. I had not put that statement in blockquotes. It was not attributed to Bush. My statement is simply that it is Bush, himself, who is the most absurd conspiracy theories of them all.

    Moreover, we have only his word, i.e, the word of a proven liar, in support of that official conspiracy theory of 911.

    There is not a shred of evidence in support of it. None!

    Additionally, Bush ordered all the evidence from the crime scene destroyed. The question of melted steel could have been resolved conclusively had not Bush, feloniously, ordered the destruction of evidence of melted steel. People cook on steel at temperatures hotter than those achieved by the 911 fires yet MELTED STEEL was photographed and, fortunately, those photos have escaped the wholesale destruction of evidence, the whole obstruction of justice that had been ordered by the criminals in the Bush White House. 911 was covered up!

    Who covers up crimes? ONLY GUILTY PEOPLE COVER UP CRIMES.

    Who lies about crimes. GUILTY PEOPLE LIE ABOUT CRIMES. or possibly accessories who benefit from the continued cover up. Many of these folk are what the law would call “accessories after the fact!. How many people in the Bush administration fall into this category?

    Who continues to lie about 911?

    George W. Bush, the man who lied about WMD and everything else.

  12. Len Hart said,

    BTW — the BBC interviewed quite a few of those alleged hijackers AFTER 911. The BBC could NOT have interviewed them if the official theory had been true. They would have been dead. Therefore, Bush’s official theory of 911 is pure bullshit.

    Atta was said to have received a payment of some 100,000 dollars for pulling the whole thing off!!!!! HUH!!! Now —what the hell is a man who is going to die by crashing an airliner as had beenalleged by the official conspiracy theorists going to do with one hundred grand?????

  13. Len Hart said,

    At last, Occam’s razor is grossly misunderstood by the people who post here. Occam, in fact, told us we should make no more assumptions than we really needed to explain anything. The OFFICIAL theory is full of pure assumptions for which there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever nor are those assumptions necessary to explain anything having to do with the events of 911. In fact, many assumptions for which there is absolutely no evidence at all are required to support the official conspiracy theory of 911.

    The true skeptics positions is that the Bush position –unsupportable by observable fact, hard evidence, or eye witness testimony –is pure and utter bullshit.

  14. Len Hart said,

    An example of those UNPROVABLE ASSUMPTIONS which are absolutely crucial to the official 911 theory is the panoply of arab hijackers and pilots.

    This is pure assumption. There is no evidence in support of any of that portion of the theory. There was IN FACT no arabs on the flight manifests.

    It was Johnny Cochran who said: If it does not fit, you must acquit!

    I say of the official bullshit theory: No Arabs on flight, you MUST indict!

    A coronors report is available. Go to the web. Pull it up. The doctor who wrote stated flatly that there were NO arabs on Flight 77,.

    Now —Don Rumseld is caught on video tape, freely available on the web, stating that it was a missle that crashed into the Pentagon. On another occasion, Rumseld referred to the missile that shot down Flight 93.

    Another observable fact that is NOT explained by the official conspiracy theory. The BBC was taped broadcasting LIVE the fact that Building 7 had collapsed. Problem is: Building 7 can be seen behind the reporter. It would not collapse for another 21 minutes –yet the reporters is describing precisely what would not happen until another 21 minutes had transpired.

    The official bullshit theory must explain that but cannot.l

  15. Len Hart said,

    Every debater knows this dictum: those who assert must prove.

    Bush asserted much and proved absolutely nothing!

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